I've removed the Joel R.L. Phelps post because of a discussion with the label head that started to become rather heated.
I mean no harm to anyone by this blog and I need to reiterate:
If anybody wants anything removed from here, or objects to any material posted, please email me at analogloyalist at gmail dot com.
Tim Cook, please contact me if you can. I would appreciate it.
This blog exists purely because I love music, and I'm bigheaded enough to think that others need to hear the music that rocks my world on a daily basis. Whether that's ultimately true or not I don't care, I just enjoy blathering about music, my thoughts on it, and giving people the opportunity to hear what they most likely will never come across during their daily travels across the Internets.
I've suspended posting for a duration because I'm rethinking my approach to this site. Will I continue to post about my favorite music? I don't know. If so, will I continue to link to files? I don't know. I'm not sure my interest in maintaining this site can be sustained by just writing about records, it's the feedback in the comments that I also enjoy almost as much as the process.
So allow me my time to have a rethink about the blog's future direction, if you will. Please share your comments below about what you like (or dislike) about this blog. Do you enjoy the full albums? If you are a loyal reader, do you download the links, or do you just read my writings?
Do you want more writing, or more files?
Thanks.
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Writing and links please! But whatever you feel comfortable with at the time. I'm personally keenly awaiting the Joy Division pitch-corrected stuff, but you've given so much and you don't owe us anything.
ReplyDeleteI like the writing and the links. With the links, I'm especially interested in the stuff that is hard or impossible to get through legitimate means but is still worthy of being heard. Your Joy Division/New Order posts especially fall into this category. I would give my left nut for a high quality recording of the full Joy Division RCA album. All the bootlegs I've heard are horribly bassy to the point of being unlistenable.
ReplyDeleteFor me, the main attraction your blog has is hearing about a bunch of interesting bands from someone who's genuinely excited about music. Sometimes I like your recs, sometimes I don't - I look the band up and see what's what, if I like them I start looking for somewhere to buy their stuff. The downloads are pretty incidental for me.
ReplyDeleteDefinitely a big fan of this blog, so please, do continue to post words and links. They are both very appreciated. It's nice to hear from others who are also passionate about music. Oh and ditto on those two J.D. requests above.
ReplyDeleteWoh woh. I have a backlog of the albums you've made available that I have to listen to. I never would have listened - or have known of - Slint if it weren't for your blog. Keep going.
ReplyDeleteI've been following your blog on recently and really appreciate both the writing and the high quality files especially JD + NO stuff. Like what the others have mentioned too, its good to see people share their passion for music and artists. Kudos!
ReplyDeletewritings and links please. Love your stuff, discovered your blog searching for the YHF demos and engineering versions. Great stuff, really appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteI've discovered loads of music through blogs like your own and then bought albums - so the music industry would need to realise your not the enemy. Obviously alot of people download and then run ... So Like the others I like both the writings and the files. (Please Recycle soon!)
ReplyDeleteHUGE fan of your blog. Enjoy the history and background on the releases, and have downloaded some absolute gems I didn't even know existed. Thanks for all you have done, and I'll be back no matter what your decision. THANK YOU!
ReplyDeleteI don't know of any really good radio programs since Peel died so I download a lot, put them all on my iPod and listen to them while driving or running, and when something grabs me I'll buy it on CD and play it at home and return to thepowerofindependenttrucking to see what you've written about them.
ReplyDeleteKeep up the good work, the music business needs You.
On a related note, I wish these record company people would recognize what a valuable service you are providing...I guarantee that due to your writing/sharing, they have seen renewed sales in music that has been forgotten by most. If they could learn to work with sites like yours, they would be FAR better off. They are really their own worst enemy, and just prove themselves to be greedy and shortsighted, which is why they are on a long, slow spiral to ruin.
ReplyDeleteYour blog is one of the best I have come across. The music you've shared is truly priceless. I can't begin to imagine the amount of work you've invested in these projects. They are of impeccable quality. And your writing is the icing on the cake. I sincerely hope you will continue to produce this blog as you have been. But it's your blog. And clearly it is so good because you are passionate about your subjects. The joy comes through loud and clear. So I think you need to do what will give you the most joy and the least stress. And let me say again, thank you for this gift known as The Power Of Independent Trucking.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I will probably cry like a baby if this blog disappears.
Your New Order downloads might just have been the best thing that happened to me last year.
ReplyDeleteHope this blog stays forever.
Your work on the JD/NO Factory years has been fanastic. Don't let the b@stards get you down.
ReplyDeleteAbout half of what you post, I know and love, so I don't necessarily DL that stuff (unless it's, say, a remastered NO boot, in which case, I'm all over it). Of the remaining half, I know of half that, and have never heard of the other half. I grab nearly most of that, because I you're a trustworthy anthologist. That's what I like most about your blog: you post things I don't know, collect them from interesting sources, and then write about them. I can sample music nearly anywhere, but your love for your taste shows through and it's the care you put into the writing and process that makes it worthwhile.
ReplyDeleteEr, long way to say that I'd still be reading your writing if you switched to writing only. I'd miss the music, but it's not necessary.
Please keep going.
ReplyDeleteIn an era where record labels are desperately in need of sales, it seems plain weird to start attacking folks who are giving up large amounts of their time to promote the music they love, and turning others on to some great records they've missed.
I'd never heard Joel R.L. Phelps, read the post on your blog and thought 'that sounds worth hearing, I'll give it a listen at some point' but didn't download. The record company's intervention makes me far less inclined to check out his records, which presumably was exactly the opposite of what they intended.
Please keep going - especially for the Joy Division/New Order music which is how I got to know of you...writing and/or files - especially rare stuff, or unreleased.
ReplyDeleteLabel people & amanagers are IMO usually idiots - they don't understand that blogs and podcasts are supporting the artist - loads of people have contacted me to say they've bought stuff due to things I've posted. As I'm sure is the case here...when a band gets promoted online it's to counter the likes of Cowell and X-Factor et al - as I explained to the manager of a certain indie rap group. We are doing the promo for them...if you think short-term then you won't win the battle...because in the long-term blogs like this are the friend of the unknown or lesser known but good acts that are drowned out by mass marketed pap and playlisting. I wish more indies took the long-term view on that.
Tim - Radio Clash blog.
"Tim Cook, please contact me if you can. I would appreciate it."
ReplyDeleteYes?
A few responses to the above:
ReplyDelete1. "With the links, I'm especially interested in the stuff that is hard or impossible to get through legitimate means but is still worthy of being heard."
Is the COMPLETE SLINT DISCOGRAPHY offered here, for however long you've been giving it away for free, impossible to get? Or is that just one teeny tiny double-standard?
2. "The downloads are pretty incidental for me."
Fine, anonymous internet dweeb, pay for them.
3. "The music you've shared is truly priceless."
Priceless, indeed: THEY ARE FREE. But I'm sure that Hook/Sumner/Gilbert/Morris and the estates of Curtis and Wilson gave you permission because you asked, right?
4. "Your New Order downloads might just have been the best thing that happened to me last year."
I don't know where we'd be without you... but maybe it would be a record store, or on a legitimate website paying for this stuff?
5. "Label people & amanagers are IMO usually idiots"
Fine, but label people and managers can often spell. And they have rights, even if you don't think so.
6. "We are doing the promo for them..."
Maybe the artists should be able to choose who does their promo? I know, I know, you just LOVE Joel Phelps, Silkworm, Slint and New Order so much that you should be able to give their music away for free to anyone with a browser and an ability to use a search engine.
7. "if you think short-term then you won't win the battle"
Thanks, but there is no "battle". I put out some records and some anonymous internet dweeb gave them away for free. I asked this person to stop, and after a bit of grandstanding, did so.
8. "that's what I like most about your blog: you post things I don't know, collect them from interesting sources, and then write about them."
Fine, write all you want. DESCRIBE the music. Maybe ask some of these artists you say you respect PERMISSION to post samples. To do otherwise is bullshit and spite of the rationalization embedded in this groupthink. ASK FIRST POST LATER, then you aren't an asshole. It's pretty simple really.
Hey, I like free stuff too. Unless it's STOLEN. Just because you like music a lot doesn't mean you've earned the right to give it away because that's called theft.
two and a half quick responses:
ReplyDelete0.5) I have removed the SLINT links.
1) NO/JD management (Prime) is aware of this blog and is generally supportive of it. I have worked directly with them on several projects (not dealt with here) as well.
2) There was no grandstanding on my end. I was asked to remove the links, my next reaction was "delete the link, edit the post" and it was done. I did so before I even replied to your request in the comments.
For the record, and not that it'll do anyone a hill of beans worth of good, but I have, within the past week, purchased used copies of JRLP's Warm Springs Night / 3 / Blackbird / Inland Empires, all via Amazon Marketplace or half.com. Tim, I'd rather this go directly to the artist but how, when the material is out of print? Paypal perhaps?
1) NO/JD management (Prime) is aware of this blog and is generally supportive of it. I have worked directly with them on several projects (not dealt with here) as well.
ReplyDeleteI wonder how "generally supportive" they'd be if you gave all their studio albums away for free.
2) "There was no grandstanding on my end."
How was arguing your rejected "point," the "I'm helping the artist" spiel and painting me as a stick in the mud not grandstanding? But I don't really care what you say or think as long as you're not giving these records away for free, because that's stealing.
->"within the past week, purchased used copies of JRLP's Warm Springs Night / 3 / Blackbird / Inland Empires, all via Amazon Marketplace or half.com"
Great... so they weren't so "impossible to find" after all.
Seriously -- you think it's an arbitrary decision and easy to manufacture, promote and distribute records? If so, you're as naive as you are anonymous. And I'm working on it, thanks.
If it were easy more labels would be doing it. Look, I'm not knocking your business decisions at all - I know enough about the backstory to realize were it not for a lot of what you did "back then" there wouldn't be a SKWM/JRLP (as we know them) to argue about amongst a bunch of "anonymous internet dweebs" as you so cautiously put it. Obviously it was a business decision to only have one JRLP record digitally available through proper channels and I understand all these choices had associated costs.
ReplyDeleteI posted links to JRLP's OOP records, was asked to remove them by a rightsholder, and did so. I also have posted links to non-OOP material (by other bands). If asked I will remove them. No big deal. My blog is just the tiniest of piss stains on the whole wide fabric of filesharing.
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ReplyDeleteTim,
ReplyDeleteI bought and paid for '3' and 'Libertine'. I did not pay for the three album pack on here, plus Customs from some blogspot.
I feel fucking terrible, so, name a price for those. If that's not enough, AL can say how many people downloaded the stuff from here and I'll buy copies of 3/Libertine on iTunes to match that.
I don't like the band or care much for indie labels or anything like that, but property rights trump all that bullshit.
-Tom
Previous two posts were pretty worthless, I'm sure they're still in cache if you want to read them.
Dear whoever I'm talking to -- I am loathe to say "thanks" for doing something you never should have done, namely giving the 60% of JRLP+DT's catalog away for free, but I appreciate the gesture of your no longer doing it. I and we have no problem with you writing about the band, describing your reasons, whatever, SAMPLES. ...but giving the whole of the volumes away, especially without permission, is waaay lame. If you spent years writing books and some asshole started giving them away for free in PDF form, available as quickly as a search could be performed, I doubt you'd love that either. If it was just chapter 1 of each volume, FINE. And nice words do help the band, should they ever tour again. I understand this. But consider what you're doing, and try to aim higher. If you were to do a good job maybe you could even develop exclusive content or possibly create something of value instead of a bunch of rapidshare links.
ReplyDelete@Analog Loyalist: Gateway drug was the JD/NO stuff, but your writing and espousing about other bands is what I added you to my feed reader for. I'm behind on listening to stuff compared to reading about it, but if you continue, I hope you will continue both. I'd be happy if it were just OOP stuff. I'd even be happy with subsets of albums, rather than the whole shebang. But if I heard something I liked which was OOP and wanted to track it down for myself, I would undoubtedly buy a second-hand copy via ebay or similar, which would not pass a cent towards the originating label anyway.
ReplyDeleteIf your blog disappeared due to interference from a right's holder, my attitude towards the mainstream way of acquiring and appreciating music would slide even further towards the black.
@Tim: I'm pleased you are posting here, as I think the discussion taking place in these comments is interesting and valuable.
@Tim: I don't know if this applies in the specific case of the links you have complained about (which went up and down before I saw them); but in the case of some other material that has been posted, the blog owner has done more than just circulate material. He has collated material from disparate sources (international releases, test pressings, bootlegs etc.) and performed a lot of re-mastering work. In the case of the JD/NO stuff, the material he is circulating is of such niche interest that the audience that are interested (myself included) have purchased everything that is available to buy already, and now appreciate hearing the stuff that is lost in the sands of time (or versions of material that is of significantly higher quality than what we've already purchased)
ReplyDeleteDear John --
ReplyDelete"the blog owner has done more than just circulate material. He has collated material from disparate sources (international releases, test pressings, bootlegs etc.) and performed a lot of re-mastering work."
Great, maybe he, she or it can create his/her/its own godddamn great music and circulate that instead of thievery.
"In the case of the JD/NO stuff, the material he is circulating is of such niche interest that the audience that are interested (myself included) have purchased everything that is available to buy already, and now appreciate hearing the stuff that is lost in the sands of time (or versions of material that is of significantly higher quality than what we've already purchased)"
So if you've purchase 3 Joy Division LPs you should be able download everything else for free... I get that. I still think it stinks.
Tim
ReplyDeleteI hope your recent posts are making you feel better because they're losing sight of the fair points you made in previous posts.
The JD/NO work is an awful lot more than simple freetard thievery. The effort that has gone into them is incredible. But they've done it because the rights holders wont/haven't. Nothing has stopped proper remastering having taken place at any point over the last 10-20 years. But it hasn't. And that's a shame for those who already have the proper releases.
Complain about stuff already available digitally. But if it isn't then you're into arguments about the nature of copyright and whether it is an exclusive right to make/not make available or an economic right to remuneration.
This comment is about the JD recycle (since it was the last attack). I'm probably not the only one in this case, at least on this blog - I've bought the Joy Division albums 3 times each with an additional LP for Still (therefore 9 albums for 4 releases!!) ... and the sound still isn't right (a tad bit annoying)! I'll buy the next versions too because they'll be tracks on it that aren't anywhere else ... hopefully they'll include AL's remastering project which I've downloaded but which I'll gladly pay for. I was going to say that the music industry sucks because they keep putting out the same music "repackaged etc" (I forget the Morrissey lyric) but we keep going back to buy the stuff so perhaps we are at fault. I suppose that each time we hope to get something better! If the "better" is a download from a blog then so be it. AL is doing what the music industry should have done from the start doing proper work on the tracks, respecting the music and the fans with a view to a proper commercial release.
ReplyDeleteDear Ctel blog --
ReplyDeleteRE "I hope your recent posts are making you feel better because they're losing sight of the fair points you made in previous posts."
How is "(make your own) godddamn great music and circulate that instead of thievery" not a valid point? And by 'making music' I don't mean re-EQ'ing Joy Division live recordings and demos.
I like Joy Division as much or more than anyone, but this sense of entitlement is disgusting.
Dear Appick --
RE: "AL is doing what the music industry should have done from the start doing proper work on the tracks, respecting the music and the fans with a view to a proper commercial release."
What, the artists had no say in the finishing of their own releases? You think "The Music Industry" is responsible for shoddy recording, mixing and mastering, and only by free download of modified copyrighted material can this be problem solved for your immediate gratification? That's delusional thinking. I know the ship has long since sailed and the downloads will not cease, but you people have no respect for other people's property. The argument of "I bought it three times this other way and will buy it again" doesn't cut it, either, because this isn't about *you*, my precious, anonymous "Appick," or any other individual freeloader; it's about everyone that uses Google or torrents or filesharing searches who did or didn't buy the source material 3 times. Those people outnumber you, I promise.
And as bad as you think it is, "bad mastering," as compared to somebody's alternate version you might like better may be, it still an artistic choice, even if it's a limitation, and it should be respected. Esp WHEN THE COPYRIGHT IS HELD BY SOMEONE ELSE.
But the artist doesn't always have final say on the finished product. I don't have specific examples (which can be a target for your vitriol) but I've read several times in interviews singers and musicians saying they were not happy with the work that was done on their records by engineers or producers, or that they found out that the albums were badly mastered. Some artists weren't there - like Jimi Hendrix to have final say on "his" CD's.
ReplyDeleteI did not say that "only by free download of modified copyrighted material can this problem be solved for your immediate gratification" so please don't make me say what I didn't say. Instead of crying about it perhaps you should try to find a solution (ok, easier said then done.)
"The argument of "I bought it three times this other way and will buy it again" doesn't cut it, either, because this isn't about *you*, my precious" (I most certainly am not YOUR precious), "anonymous" (if I were, I would have signed anonymously) ""Appick," or any other individual freeloader."
But yes this is about ME - and everyone else who buys the music. This is what I mean about respecting the fan. I'm not the only one buying music. I'm not the only one old enough to have bought vinyl lps, cassettes for his walkman, CD's that play even if smeared with jam of a same record (David Bowie, Joy Division, Led Zepplin, Hendrix, Pink Floyd ...) Then there were DVDs, DVD Audio and now Bluray ... What's next to sell us what we've already bought for the umpteenth time?
I also realise that people who buy albums today are in a minority. I also know that I've discovered an enormous amount of music that I wouldn't have known about if it hadn't been for "Google or torrents or filesharing searches". I'm stopping there because I've started waffling but you can have my thoughts warts and all ... for free!
On a serious note: I can understand your point of view, but I think that you are going about it the wrong way. You're being aggressive so we want to defend ourselves so we become aggressive too. You're not looking at it from the customers' point of view but then you never did (when I say you I mean the music industry) and now it's too late. Interesting stand point from Steven Wilson (who hates downloading) who has said that as a result of downloading some people have become more inventive about the presentation of the music (look at the last 3SE of his solo work and Porcupine Tree albums). And you can't beat a well presented package of music where you can read about the genesis of the music, follow the lyrics and look at the beautiful photography. Placing the disc in the machine after making sure that it is clean adds to the experience of listening to a record. But quite sincerely I can't help but think that the music industry is getting what it deserves - and it pains me too because at the end of the day we will all suffer! And that's a bugger.
PS Sorry what's an OOP record?
ReplyDeletePPS I've just re-read my second comment about "If the "better" is a download from a blog then so be it", to which your comment "only by free download of modified copyrighted material can this problem be solved for your immediate gratification" does apply more than I thought. My counter answer is wrong then, and I apologise. It just seems ironic that in order to get the closest thing to the artists' original vision, we should turn to a blog. That's what I meant by that remark.
ReplyDeleteappick, "OOP" = out of print.
ReplyDeleteTim said "If you spent years writing books and some asshole started giving them away for free in PDF form, available as quickly as a search could be performed, I doubt you'd love that either."
there's this thing called a Public Library. i can check out anything there for free. yes, books, and also including current/modern audio & video recordings. i can find these as quickly as a search can be performed in the library's card catalog.
i realize that's not the same thing as downloading a PDF of a book, or some cd, and i understand the point about "ripping off" an artist by downloading their music, but at the same time the author/artist/label is not making any additional money from library checkouts, just like they are not making money off of sales of used cds at FYE or on amazon.
as far as the fan remastering issue is concerned - if the labels wanted people to be able to buy awesome, properly remastered versions of certain records, they should make them available if there is a market to sell them. some labels are doing this with their "deluxe edition" versions of some albums. as a fan, it sometimes sucks to re-buy things i already own in multiple form but sometimes its also worth it, and fans appreciate it when a label does something correctly that does justice to the artist and their recordings.
on the flip side, you can't characterize something like a poorly mastered cd from 1988 as an "artistic choice" on the part of the artist. who are you to say that you know that is what the artist meant to be? for example.. that husker du's "candy apple grey" is supposed to sound like CRAP on cd? i doubt that is what bob mould wanted. just because that was the version released to the public doesn't mean the artist was OK with it - i've read tons of interviews where the artist was critical of the label for releasing something they didn't necessarily approve of (either recording quality, songs, altered music - like labels adding strings to nick drake recordings), and even not releasing things the artist wanted released.
Tim, I understand where you're coming from but you're not doing yourself any favours by being so angry about it all. Stooping down to the level of calling the owner of this blog an asshole or, even worse, an "it" is waaaay lame, and it draws attention away from the valid things you're saying. You know what else is lame? Criticizing someone else's spelling and then writing goddamn with three Ds. I know this was probably a typo but so was the other person's, so stay away from arguments as dumb as those; again, they detract from the valid things you're saying. Sharing music on the internet, btw, is not thievery. It's piracy. Does that make it right? No. But it's not the same.
ReplyDeleteI've loved all the amazing compilations and Peel sessions and rarities posted here, especially with the detailed and often insightful commentary. The New FADs, the Housemartins, the New Order stuff....all top notch. Keep it going - of course label owners are against it, but where else would we be able to get this? I don't see the Housemartins Peel sessions on iTunes. If i found it in some used record store and bought it, no $ would go back to Norman Cook et al.
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate everyone's comments, even yours Tim. This kind of dialogue rarely happens in this direct manner between "The Industry" and the fans. Nobody will go home happy, but each side (I hope) understands the other's perspective.
ReplyDeleteFYI, while it's not much of a giveback, check out the new section for Joel R. L. Phelps & The Downer Trio over at discogs.com - you have yours truly to thank for all but the entry for 3. And even there, I did expand on the release notes for the entry.
I am going to continue blogging. I like this give/take as much as the blogging itself, and I'm going to continue on the same path as before. Maybe not so many "complete discography" entries, because I fully understand a lot of Tim's points, but I'm not giving up the ghost quite yet.
----
burningrome: while I do own a Housemartins CD (that I've not listened to in at least 15 years), I have not blogged them.
Keep going! Keep going! Love the posts and you have rekindled a love for Bob Mould. Love the R.E.M posts and links.
ReplyDeleteHa - getting my music blogs mixed up; I'd got that from the Peel Sessions one;
ReplyDeletehttp://festive50.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/a-bird-in-the-hand-etc/
but thanks again for all the great music!
let's keep in mind that an mp3 (even a flac file) will never ever replace owning the actual vinyl or cd. i'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who follow this blog buy lots and lots of records. the minority of people who just download and run were never going to buy it in the first place.
ReplyDelete-CHR1S K0RCH
-owner of over 5,000 cds and counting
5,000 CDs! and I thought that I had alot with over 2,000 cds, vinyl, DVDs (and 1 bluray)!
ReplyDelete